Curse

Ccat · Aug 13, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

For anyone that has used one, most people will know that an Imbagon is mostly used for the Allegiance Rank skill "Save Yourselves!", whilst keeping at range and negating the 'all but you' effect of the shout. But lately I've started to question the skills use - is it really worth it?

I've tried a few PvE Team builds out, more notably the Meta ones. I started off with Racway first, and I could keep my SY! up for the most part with 5 seconds. But I found I couldn't Vanquish some areas. If there were too many enemies I just got overwhelmed. Then I tried Discord, and it seemed as though I could handle huge pressures, because when the enemies started to rise, the minions would rise therefore. There was literally no place I couldn't go into (save for elite missions and the like).

So this lead me to believe that SY! was not worth the effort, even for all its posturing and boasting a massive 82.3% damage reduction. Why is this? Because Save Yourselves is NOT 82.3% damage reduction. It barely scratches the surface.

Here are a few statistics -

Save Yourselves is primarily a HM skill. Normal mode is whimp mode when you've been playing the game for 3 years or so (like me) and hardly needs anything to pass through the campaign. So in this mode, there are powerful nukers, skill spammers, reduced activation times and faster IAS.

It doesn't take much to figure out most kinds of Necromancer and Mesmer damage go straight through SY!, so powerful SS damage from Shadow Beasts will do big numbers.

Then, there's melee damage, but SY! doesn't affect this much either. HM Melee professions tend to be the type of skill spamming, thus high damage output. People should know that the +damage effect from attack skills is too, armor-ignoring. HM enemies are constantly spamming skills anyway so it won't do much against that sort of damage. Blocking is a more effective route especially with 75%, rendering the attack skills hopeless, for the mostpart.

Physical damage is much easier to counter as always with ace-in-the-hole skills such as Soothing Images, Well of Silence or blocking, Zombies in SoO. While casters only really need comfort from Dazing possibly, and usually have what it takes to remove those conditions. Imbagons need pampering constantly with condition and hex removal to make sure they get the shout through, as well as often needing a Dark Fury player in case of blocking or missy Hexes.

So what I come to is that SY! is only really useful against Ele nukers, a great deal. Am I missing something? From where I see it this build is not worth much more than traditional Monking (PS, Guardian, Aegis, the usual). I know Imbagons are held as something sacred being the only good build Paragons have (hence Imbalanced-agon) so when I criticise it try not to be rude and dismissive. Tell me where I am wrong.

Thanks.

Reverend Dr · Aug 13, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Aside from all of the armor ignoring damage, 2 SY on your frontline (easy to slot in w/x and x/w formats) the imbagon largely becomes redundant.

It really is kind of a specialized build, there are some places it is amazing and others where it just doesn't do much. It really is a gimmick since, other than TNtF, the entire bar is based around spamming SY.

But it is going to be highly sought after in a PuG. It is still largely effective and ridiculously easy to play. Much like Healers Boon monks, they really are inferior to WoH/Prot hybrids, but they are easy enough to play that just about anyone can do it. Same reason PuG's have always hated frenzy.

reaper with no name · Aug 13, 2009, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Supposedly, enemy nukers can do serious amounts of damage in HM, so I'd say that alone justifies the imbagon's presence, to say nothing of his effects on physical damage dealers.

But you have to remember, the imbagon has more than SY!. There's two other damage-reducing skills in his arsenal. As well as whatever else he puts on his bar (GftE, for example).

Gennadios · Aug 13, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

You're wrong - somewhat.

The first problem /w the paragon is that it's one of the last classes to be released, hence it has the smallest skill selection to begin with.

The second problem is that 1/4th of the paragons skill tree is utterly, brokenly useless (motivation.)

I don't find SY! worth it, as Reverend said, the build is based entirely on maintaining it, and not only can DS warriors keep it up more regularly and for longer durations, but Imbas sacrifice alot of utility to spam it.

To the person 3 or 4 posts down that will eventually say it, NO, IMBAS DO NOT DO HIGH DAMAGE. They relying on too many 1sec casting time/ >6sec recharge skills to really spam attacks.

The PvE skills I usually lean on Ebon Battle Standard of honor and There's Nothing to Fear, the damage output from a well placed standard is far more valuable than SY! I also cut out all the chants in favor of shouts, as every second you're chanting is a second that you're not attacking.

madriel222 · Aug 13, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

For any HM area in Guild Wars, cookie cutter builds like the Imbagon are going to be inferior to builds designed specifically for a zone. Are the omnipresent Sab and Discord awesomely effective in every area? Of course not, so why should the Imbagon be?

That said, you have to check to see where the enemy damage is coming from when you're deciding on whether to run Imbagon. Like you hinted at, high powered HM elementalists are a great reason to bring such a great armor buff, but that's not all. Warrior, ranger, and paragon auto-attacks in HM can deal big damage to squishies, so SY can really help here, negating virtually all damage outside of the +bonus from the skill. Mesmers and necros your main threats? You may want to consider running another bar. No real damage threats but powerful monks in your way? Think about things like Stunning Strike. You just have to come prepared, that's all.

I like D-Slash as much as the next guy, but I tend to favor a para bringing SY if we're going to bring it at all. It's not as much of a problem with careful pulling and grouping, but all too often I find that heroes like to run out of earshot if I'm frontline.

Just my two cents ^_^

IronSheik · Aug 13, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I prefer SY on a sin or barrager. Easy upkeep without major build interference, where the imbagon is completely built to keep it up with maybe 3-4 variabile skills...granted I love my paragon..I hate using one build with it, it's imbagon or porogon, boring.

Racthoh · Aug 13, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

The Dragonslash guy is always going to be inferior because of positioning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

It doesn't take much to figure out most kinds of Necromancer and Mesmer damage go straight through SY!, so powerful SS damage from Shadow Beasts will do big numbers.

Arguing "Save Yourselves!" isn't effective against armor ignoring damage is like saying Cure Hex isn't effective against Disease. If you're expecting armor ignoring damage in the form of hexes then you take adequate hex removal, not blame a skill for not being universally effective against every manner in which damage can be dealt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Then, there's melee damage, but SY! doesn't affect this much either. HM Melee professions tend to be the type of skill spamming, thus high damage output. People should know that the +damage effect from attack skills is too, armor-ignoring. HM enemies are constantly spamming skills anyway so it won't do much against that sort of damage.

Enemies attacking 25% faster most definitely improves the effectiveness of "Save Yourselves!". In any case it's entirely dependent on where/what you're fighting. Most Tyrian mobs pack very few attack skills making the bulk of their damage come in auto-attack form. While the +damage skills are armor ignoring that's what "There's Nothing To Fear!" is for, a skill the Dragonslash user will not have access to.

Quote:

Blocking is a more effective route especially with 75%, rendering the attack skills hopeless, for the mostpart.

75%? Are you suggesting all profession go /w for stances because outside of Shield of Deflection you're not going to find skills with that high a block value. PvE is not about putting all your eggs in one basket, if something is worth doing it's worth overdoing. You bring your Aegis, Guardian, Shield of Absorption, "Save Yourselves!", Enfeebling Blood, all of it because fall backs are always a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Physical damage is much easier to counter as always with ace-in-the-hole skills such as Soothing Images, Well of Silence or blocking, Zombies in SoO. While casters only really need comfort from Dazing possibly, and usually have what it takes to remove those conditions. Imbagons need pampering constantly with condition and hex removal to make sure they get the shout through, as well as often needing a Dark Fury player in case of blocking or missy Hexes.

This depends entirely on the skill level of the player and whether or not the team has the hindsight to build appropriately, in addition to knowing the mechanics of the AI. I would expect my group to understand the strength of "Save Yourselves!" and the maintenance it can require under certain circumstances. I would expect the Paragon to be familiar with the skills that really wreck the way physicals function and know when to call for cleaning. I would expect the Paragon to understand when their defensive purpose overrides the offense they provide and attack whatever is not under the effects of a blocking enchantment/stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

To the person 3 or 4 posts down that will eventually say it, NO, IMBAS DO NOT DO HIGH DAMAGE. They relying on too many 1sec casting time/ >6sec recharge skills to really spam attacks.

My Paragon has Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, otherwise every single skill is instant/attack. I have no idea what bar runs multiple one second casting skills but all that does is hurt the bar. "Save Yourselves!" is your energy, which fuels your offense and your defense, anytime you're not attacking you're only doing yourself more harm than good.

Tenebrae · Aug 13, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Maybe ppl focus on SY too much , i gotta say i run a Soldiers Fury build with TNTF and some attacks , some utilities and it works so well. SY is not needed 100% of the time , its as useless as a prot spamming Guardian and PS on recharge on ALL party members .... waste of energy as SY bringer ( yes , im not saying imbagon ) wastes 6 skills just to mantain 1 shout.
Dont get me wrong , perma 100 armor for all party is great but dedicate more than the half of your bar to it when its not really needed ..... is a waste imo. I do like most the Paragon as a SY bringer than as an Imbagon . For its usefulness , its ALWAYS useful except for armor ignoring damage ( but there you go TNTF ). Anyway i think that relying too much of something is not good so welcome SS with enfeebling blood ^^.

Ccat · Aug 13, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Arguing "Save Yourselves!" isn't effective against armor ignoring damage is like saying Cure Hex isn't effective against Disease. If you're expecting armor ignoring damage in the form of hexes then you take adequate hex removal, not blame a skill for not being universally effective against every manner in which damage can be dealt.

While I am perpetually told that Hexes are reapplied anyway in PvE, there are other worries. Spiteful Spirit was only an example of armor ignoring damage, but then there's skills like Ineptitude, Icy veins and touch skills

Then there's people holding the skill at god stature. I'm not trying to make the skill look terrible, just point out that the 82.3% reduction is a false claim. Teams like Racway labeled 'great' rely totally on the skill, but in reality it won't protect against huge spikes from The Drought or whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Enemies attacking 25% faster most definitely improves the effectiveness of "Save Yourselves!". In any case it's entirely dependent on where/what you're fighting. Most Tyrian mobs pack very few attack skills making the bulk of their damage come in auto-attack form. While the +damage skills are armor ignoring that's what "There's Nothing To Fear!" is for, a skill the Dragonslash user will not have access to.

But then this is only one campaign. "There's Nothing to Fear!" only reduces damage by 35% (Nowhere near whay SY! claims it does) and doesn't last forever. I have a 10 second downtime on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

75%? Are you suggesting all profession go /w for stances because outside of Shield of Deflection you're not going to find skills with that high a block value.

I was more talking about Aegis combined with Guardian will technically give a 75% block chance, Displacement on top of it making health bars high especially for the spirit. You pretty much pointed it out in the rest of this post, just wanted to verify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This depends entirely on the skill level of the player and whether or not the team has the hindsight to build appropriately, in addition to knowing the mechanics of the AI. I would expect my group to understand the strength of "Save Yourselves!" and the maintenance it can require under certain circumstances. I would expect the Paragon to be familiar with the skills that really wreck the way physicals function and know when to call for cleaning. I would expect the Paragon to understand when their defensive purpose overrides the offense they provide and attack whatever is not under the effects of a blocking enchantment/stance.

That can add up to alot of pressure on the healers though can't it? Like I've said before casters don't have to worry about so many conditions, and before that hexes are applied instantly in PvE anyway (supposedly). It sounds like a lot of micromanagement for a skill that won't be as effective as say, PS combined with other prots.

Your points are very good but then I don't remember having requirements from Discord for anything. A SY! team was often countered by Rot Wallows and others, but the only thing I can remember that countered Discord were Skeletons in HM.

Perfected Shadow · Aug 13, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

From my H/H perspective: +100 armor to the party used at the right times is very nice. HM auto attacks and eles bring a lot of pain. Enfeebling blood can take care of the former but mobs are not always balled, and eles are still very dangerous. Also being a shout, SY is unstrippable. Yes you have to keep the user clean but that's what I dedicate an N/Mo hero for.

trankle · Aug 13, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Then there's people holding the skill at god stature. I'm not trying to make the skill look terrible, just point out that the 82.3% reduction is a false claim. Teams like Racway labeled 'great' rely totally on the skill, but in reality it won't protect against huge spikes from The Drought or whatever.

Actually, that's precisely one of the kinds of damage it will protect against: elemental.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

But then this is only one campaign. "There's Nothing to Fear!" only reduces damage by 35% (Nowhere near whay SY! claims it does) and doesn't last forever. I have a 10 second downtime on it.

That can add up to alot of pressure on the healers though can't it? Like I've said before casters don't have to worry about so many conditions, and before that hexes are applied instantly in PvE anyway (supposedly). It sounds like a lot of micromanagement for a skill that won't be as effective as say, PS combined with other prots.

It's a matter of being a good enough player to know when to use skills. An Imbagon that hits TNTF on recharge is not going to be as effective as one who is reading the battlefield and using TNTF when it is most prudent to do so.

For example, a good Imbagon is going to know that Icy Veins is elemental damage, not armor-ignoring, as you've claimed in your post. Likewise with any damage done by The Drought. And he'll know that SY and TNTF can be used in conjunction to reduce that damage.

It's the same deal with SY/TNTF vs prots. There are areas where enchant stripping is so prevalent that prots at are a serious disadvantage to the unstrippable protection of shouts. Then again, there are areas (fewer, such as some desolation and vabbi areas) that have so much physical and shout hate that running adrenal/shout based protection is quite tricky. It's a matter of skill and experience to not only bring the right protection for the area, but also to play it effectively.

And, of course, a team can always run a combination of shout and enchant based protection...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Your points are very good but then I don't remember having requirements from Discord for anything. A SY! team was often countered by Rot Wallows and others, but the only thing I can remember that countered Discord were Skeletons in HM.

I think you're getting a little hung up on wiki builds. An Imbagon is useful in more than one team setup; Discord-way is extremely flexible. You could even, believe it or not, have Discord team with an Imbagon.

And I hate to say it, but any team that got rolled by Rot Wallows was being played poorly.

Gennadios · Aug 14, 2009, 12:03 AM // 00:03

This is an observation I came across while farming Rihlon refuge for zcoins yesterday.

Arkfenway - primarily the communing Armor of Unfeeling/Shelter build can do a far better job of mitigating ele nukes than SY!

Even /w winter, the boss at the end of the mission would usually do enough damage to bring down 2 or 3 of the party on initial aggro. Yesterday, on the 3 chars that had a rit hench that I attempted the mission on, the lowest health I remember anyone dropping to was somewhere in the vicinity of 60%. SY! is dead thankfully.

MisterB · Aug 14, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

It's a matter of being a good enough player to know when to use skills. An Imbagon that hits TNTF on recharge is not going to be as effective as one who is reading the battlefield and using TNTF when it is most prudent to do so.

An Imbagon who does not hit TNtF on recharge is going to lose Aggressive Refrain, unless other shouts are present in the party.

At Rot Wallows rolling a SY! Imbagon, what?

Pocketmancer · Aug 14, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

I think arguing that Save Yourselves is bad because it doesn't reduce armour ignoring damage is like arguing that Pain Inverter is bad because it's only useful when applied on AoE casters. The fact of it is, we encounter non-armour ignoring damage enough for it to count. Even if 5-6 skills need to be dedicated to keep Save Yourselves up forever, what's to wrong with that? That's just the way some builds work.

Ccat · Aug 14, 2009, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Well like people have pointed out in this thread the skill just sometimes doesn't work. Shelter and Union are good spirits but they will get KO'd (with their effects, not with direct hits) with AoE damage easily. Anyone who's faced a Deep Freeze or Searing Flames on a HM boss will know Shelter dies on aggro.

My team (a modified ArkFenway with all the Rits swapped for Necros) has huge trouble with ele nuking in particular. Short of bonding there is nothing I can do to stop it. Save Yourselves is quite literally a lifesaver in this situation. It's not that the skill isn't useful. It's just not that useful.

In my opinion the spirits Union, Displacement and Shelter rival SY! in terms of party protection. That being said they take ALOT more TLC than SY! ever will. As previously stated, Weakness is barely less effective than SY! when it comes to damage mitigation. A good thing but also a bad thing, I want SY! to go away. Not because it's a bad skill. Why fix what isn't broken? Because it's boring.

I mourn for Paragons, I yearn for them to get better. I want them to go in a different direction, one of refrains and % reduction like ToF! I don't want to play my Paragon for 2 days a month because the build gets stale that quick, I want choice.

I imagine SY! to be to Paragons what HB is to Monks in the near future. I hope I'm right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

I think arguing that Save Yourselves is bad because it doesn't reduce armour ignoring damage is like arguing that Pain Inverter is bad because it's only useful when applied on AoE casters. The fact of it is, we encounter non-armour ignoring damage enough for it to count. Even if 5-6 skills need to be dedicated to keep Save Yourselves up forever, what's to wrong with that? That's just the way some builds work.

I wholeheartedly acknowledge that complaining SY! doesn't do anything in terms of AI damage is stupid and is a big hole in logic, but it's about more than meets the eye. My mentioning of this was really about questioning the skills effectiveness again. Going back to Racway (inoinoino) you see it's basically the only skill that keeps the team build off terrible red-barring, as if excellent red-barring wasn't bad enough. Yet the build is held in great. Why? It has no Weakness condition, blocking or a good healer, and most of all it doesn't have PS.

That right there leads me to believe that people really are taking 82.3% damage reduction way too seriously. It is NOT 82.3% reduction, it is NOT an ace in the hole. I just want people to acknowledge this before they go creating Racway builds. SY! is great, but it needs backup Prots. Racway as it is now is like it was made for farming Aatxe's in the labyrinth before /resigning - so specific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

At Rot Wallows rolling a SY! Imbagon, what?

I don't see what everyone's having such a hard time understanding. Paragons do next to nothing when it comes to touch skills and AI damage, and Rot Wallows in HM happen to be packed with energy and touching your party to death. I should say I was trying this before they superbuffed "Can't Touch This!".

Marverick · Aug 14, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

This is an observation I came across while farming Rihlon refuge for zcoins yesterday.

Arkfenway - primarily the communing Armor of Unfeeling/Shelter build can do a far better job of mitigating ele nukes than SY!

Even /w winter, the boss at the end of the mission would usually do enough damage to bring down 2 or 3 of the party on initial aggro. Yesterday, on the 3 chars that had a rit hench that I attempted the mission on, the lowest health I remember anyone dropping to was somewhere in the vicinity of 60%. SY! is dead thankfully.

Hmmm... Prot Spirit + SoA on your Imbagon and have him run in first and attack; then once he puts up SY! the rest of the team comes in and cleans up the stuff?

Or, you know, interrupts... also work

Pocketmancer · Aug 14, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I personally don't run Racway for vanquishes even though I run it for normal mode. From what I can tell though, it's designed in such a way where it's used to provide synergy across the player and three heroes in such a way where they benefit continuously and maintain a strong momentum. How far that goes in HM, I won't say much more since like I've said, I've never used it for vanquishes. SY! is just there to provide even better synergy as it's a quickly applied and quickly ending shout.

On the note of Paragons though, I do happen to run a paragon on my secondary account when I play 2-man vanquishes. That second paragon doesn't run SY! by the way (TNTF is there though). That paragon just runs party-wide only buffs and that's a bit more effective for me than SY! honestly (considering I don't have the power of ADHD to manage two accounts at once). And surpisingly enough, all I need to do is just mash buttons on that second account and I get good enough buffs that protect the party. SY! isn't the only thing (and this is said as a way to add to your argument where SY may not be needed).

The skills? Don't laugh:

Paragon/Rit
There is Nothing to Fear!
Can't Touch This!
Stand Your Ground
Fall Back
Offering of Spirit
They're on Fire!
Never Give Up!
Never Surrender!

And that's enough for me and a Paragon mule to go through and vanquish all of Cantha's 8 man areas.

Chthon · Aug 14, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

This is an observation I came across while farming Rihlon refuge for zcoins yesterday.

Arkfenway - primarily the communing Armor of Unfeeling/Shelter build can do a far better job of mitigating ele nukes than SY!

Even /w winter, the boss at the end of the mission would usually do enough damage to bring down 2 or 3 of the party on initial aggro. Yesterday, on the 3 chars that had a rit hench that I attempted the mission on, the lowest health I remember anyone dropping to was somewhere in the vicinity of 60%. SY! is dead thankfully.

1. The best method of dealing with the Drought is neither SY! nor Shelter, but rather BHA fired from outside aggro range.

2. Armor of Unfeeling doesn't help Shelter. Life loss, not damage.

3. While Shelter is awesome, it's not going to last 5 sec against damage that heavy. SY! will do a better job of keeping the team alive.

Gennadios · Aug 14, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Or, you know, interrupts... also work

Heroes/Henchies cannot prioritize and rupt like ass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Armor of Unfeeling doesn't help Shelter. Life loss, not damage.

3. While Shelter is awesome, it's not going to last 5 sec against damage that heavy. SY! will do a better job of keeping the team alive.

2. My bad. Can never get union/shelter/displacement straight.

3.It will last as long as necessary for the duration of an ele boss fight. The damage(life loss) the spirit takes when mitigating damage does not scale with the amount of damage taken.

Ele bosses hit hard, but they'll expand their their best skills early on. At 11 communing/spawning power they'll have enough health to block 5 hits. Provided there's a frontline to take the initial batch of nukes, the eles won't have anything dangerous left to cast by the time the spirit dies out.

Even if they do nuke the entire party, it's the equivalent of having 5 players under the effects of prot. spirit for that one attack. That's at least one attack that doesn't leave half your party @ <50% HP. SY! only drops ele damage by a percentage, which isn't always much of an improvement since bosses do double damage to begin with. Shelter caps it.

MisterB · Aug 14, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

Heroes/Henchies cannot prioritize and rupt like ass

Step 1. Target WTFDomage boss.
Step 2. Click the lock target icon on BHA hero.
Step 3. Click the BHA icon on BHA hero skill bar.
Step 4. Call target.
-Optional bonus points!- Use a ranged knockdown or snare just before hero attacks.
Step 5. Win.

Zho and Daeman can't be guided like that, true.

At OP: The reason I pointed out the Rot Wallows is because they are simply not dangerous. It doesn't matter that Imbagon provides no direct defense against them, because they should pose no threat. Angorodons can be dangerous, but that is because they have Twisting Jaws and life steal and sometimes chew on the same target.